L.G.: I know that McCain's very serious about cutting costs and stopping pork-barrel spending, but when he initially voted against the tax cuts, he didn't make a big point at the time of saying, We need spending caps, and we should have tax cuts when we reduce spending. He said this was an unfair tax benefit for the wealthy. That was his main objection.

P.P.: Oh, Lloyd, I don't frankly recall precisely what he said, but I know what he thinks, because he's talked to me about it, and I think he does think it should be linked, whether formally or informally, to spending restraints. And one of his great criticisms of the current Congress and Administration is that we've had the biggest increase in spending that we've had in decades and decades. Now back to doing something about it—I think where that starts is getting a [foundation] C.E.O. that is as good as we can find. And we've been extraordinarily fortunate. I don't know how well you know David Walker. He's comptroller general of the United States. He's as least as passionate as I am about the unsustainability of these programs. He's leaving one of the best jobs in government, having done a fabulous job and having really led the discussion on how unsustainable these problems are. Him joining this foundation is really one of the most reassuring things I could’ve ever have imagined. And his reasoning is that the problems are really serious; they really are unsustainable. We've got not too many years to fix them or they will truly explode on us. And he can do more in the private sector than he could in the government, where you're obviously restrained about taking positions and so forth. What's going to be different about what we do? I don't want to sound glib or naive about this. This is a very, very tough topic, the political problem. That's why I said it's untouchable politically. In my view, one of the things we have to do is educate and awaken the country. Starting with young people, starting with their parents. You know the old joke about the students in the philosophy class. The professor asked them, "Which is worse, ignorance or apathy?" And some kid from the back says, "I don't know, and I don't care."

L.G.: Right.

P.P.: Well, I don't want to characterize all young people that way, but too many of our young have no idea.

L.G.: I recall one young man that you told straight out: These tax cuts are unsustainable, and possibly even immoral. Of course, he was president of the United States, and he didn't listen to you—George W. Bush.

P.P.: He wouldn't be the first politician not to listen to me. But you see, we can sit around and criticize the politicians. The fact is, this is a democracy. If you're going to take tough steps, particularly in this democracy, you're going to have to have the understanding and the support of the people. At the present time, all the evidence suggests, just to take the young people: They're blissfully unaware of the magnitude of some of these challenges, and what the implications are on their payroll taxes and their economic future. They just don't know. And one of the reasons they don't know is the political leaders don't want to get in the big discussion of these subjects, as you can see from the current campaign.

Because once you explain the magnitude of these problems, the obvious question is, What do you propose to do about it? And when you're asked what to do about it, there aren't any painless alternatives. One of them is to reduce the benefits, or reduce our energy consumption, or depending on which issue we're talking about. Or the other is to pay for it with increased taxes. And we've developed such an aggregated case of short-term-itis, and all gain and no pain, and all benefits and no cost, that in the current climate, if a politician suggests that you may have to increase revenues or you may have to reduce benefits, it's often not only considered politically incorrect, it's considered politically terminal.

L.G.: So my question is, Are you going to put, like, major dollars—you're an old advertising guy—into trying to try to change the public attitude? In other words, drive the discussion with advertising?

P.P.: Our objective is not to only change the attitude, but to increase the knowledge first, the understanding of what the problem is. Our foundation president is just starting, so if you think you're going to get me to lay out a specific program, forget it. There are a couple of things we already have in mind. I have been very impressed with what the effect of Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth was. And part of it, to be sure, was his presence, and part of it was the drama of the film—the polar bears, the ice caps, and so forth. I have authorized Rory Kennedy and her partner, Liz Garbus, to prepare a film proposal for us that takes some of the themes of my book Running on Empty and tries to dramatize them. Your question is right on, on how difficult it is. If all we try to do is put out relentlessly a bunch of statistics, in a cold form, there may be a few policy wonks that say, "Gee, I had no idea," but that's difficult.

L.G.: You've probably had enough of wonks.

P.P.: Yeah. If having creative people can dramatize these issues and create the video counterpart of the polar bears and ice caps and so forth, it might make a difference. The one thing we're going to do most certainly is explore conventional filming. Then there's a whole new world of Facebook and MySpace, and the whole video internet world.

L.G.: Are you on Facebook or MySpace?

P.P.: Not yet.

L.G.: So I can't friend you on Facebook yet?

P.P.: Not at the moment, but I hope you will be able to.

L.G.: How often do you go on the internet?

P.P.: I don't personally. That's one of the problems.

L.G.: So when I get email from you, you've dictated it to someone?

P.P.: Yeah. It's through the office. But I'm not so obsolete about the information age that I haven't heard of the internet and Facebook and MySpace. We're going to have a huge drive (we've got some experts already), saying, If you've got plenty of financial resources and you wanted to do something highly innovative on the internet [that] may involve some partnerships—the primary firms in the business—how would you do it? And I would say to them, ‘I don't want you restrained by the fact that it's a startup and it's going to cost $100,000 or something. Just give us some really dynamic ideas.’ The young are going to be a special target. I don't believe that the young are masochists, that they have consciously decided that they don't care about their economic future or the country's future. I just don't believe that.