Sirio Maccioni, the founder of Le Cirque, is a force of nature—a simple Tuscan farmer's son who conquered New York by championing the idea that a restaurant is not only a purveyor of fine food, but is also a Darwinian arbiter of celebrity and high society. The seventysomething Maccioni—who has yet to shed his Old World ways or, for that matter, his magnificently fractured English—has reigned supreme over his little duchy (two restaurants in New York and others in Las Vegas, Mexico City, and beyond) for the past 34 years, collecting presidents, popes, moguls, and movie stars as friends and loyal customers.
           
The family business—Maccioni, his wife, Egidiana, and their three sons, Mario, Marco, and Mauro—is the subject of A Table in Heaven, a well-received behind-the-scenes documentary that premiered last month at the Sundance Film Festival, focusing on Le Cirque's big move from the Palace Hotel on Madison Avenue to the Bloomberg building on East 58th Street.

In the film's most searing scene, Maccioni is shown reacting with devastation to a less-than-glowing July 2006 review of the new establishment by New York Times restaurant critic Frank Bruni—a name that these days he can't bring himself to even utter. Never mind that Maccioni changed chefs, revamped the menu, and Bruni has recently filed a much rosier reassessment.
          
Over a ridiculously rich lunch at Le Cirque—foie gras ravioli, langoustine, and venison fallow, topped off by crème brûlée, and a chocolate soufflé—Maccioni gave Portfolio.com an exclusive interview in between barking orders to his staff, flirting with the ladies who lunch, and accepting effusive greetings from his most prosperous patrons.

Lloyd Grove: I have to ask you—you were in Sundance and went to Burger King?
 
Sirio Maccioni: Yes, that's true, because that was the only thing open. I arrived there [for the Sundance Film Festival screening of A Table in Heaven], it was one o'clock in the morning, and I hadn't eaten anything all day, not on the plane, they didn't have anything. And a very nice guy who was my driver, I told him, "I have a need to eat, and it's one o'clock, could we go to a place?" And it was closed. Across the street, there was a Burger King, so I went there.
                
L.G.: Did you have the Whopper?
 
S.M.: I had a hamburger there to bring to my room.
 
L.G.: In the movie about you and your family, there are scenes of eating Big Macs.
 
S.M.: I was not there. My sons, they were there.
 
L.G.: Does this embarrass you at all?
 
S.M.: Listen, I do many things that embarrass myself. I've been through a lot. One of the best things, when I don't know what to eat, is a hamburger. Here at Le Cirque, it's done really well. I think we do a great hamburger. We do one regular with a piece of foie gras, we do one with cheese, we do one with a side dish that is mostly Caesar salad. This is what you can get most of all at the bar.
 
L.G.: How much does the hamburger set you back?
 
S.M.: [Flagging a captain] Hello. Can we have a menu? How much is a hamburger?
 
Captain: Hamburger? It's $16. I'll double-check. [A "mini cheeseburger" at the bar is $18.]
 
L.G.: You've been in business here since the 1960s, when you were a maître d' at The Colony. You opened the first Le Cirque at the Mayfair Hotel in March of '74, and you got a 25-year lease from the Zeckendorfs [on East 65th Street between Park and Madison avenues].

S.M.: Yes, which is the best thing that happened to me-a thing that happened with nice people.

L.G.: And then, in 1997, you moved to the Palace [at Madison and 51st Street] with Le Cirque 2000.
 
S.M.: At the Palace, at that moment, I still believed in grandeur. And the Palace was grandeur. It was a good location.
 
L.G.: One problem was that you had to walk across the courtyard and it was slick when it was raining. People could slip. You'd have to get everybody to sign a waiver.
 
S.M.: Some of these big entrepreneurs—when they want you, they promise you everything. Fortunately, I still believe people when they tell you something. So they tell you many things. Then I find out that there was a war going on between the hotel and the church. [The Roman Catholic archdiocese of New York had offices on the premises.] And I tried to have a good relation with everybody, because it takes the same time to have a bad relation as a good relation. Some people enjoy to have a...
 
L.G.: Drama?
 
S.M.: I don't like drama. There are many things that people want from me.

L.G.: You don't like drama?

 
S.M.: I like to make drama, but I don't like to have stupid drama. You know, for many years, I was able to attract the very best people. For me, one of the best customers in the restaurant in the last 20 years was a guy that manufactured chairs in Queens. But he always used to come in with the most beautiful women, and he drank the very best wine, so I don't want to get involved or get excited. The best wine, and he liked the most beautiful women. And I think, from my point of view, especially today, there are not enough stars and kings and presidents to fill a restaurant, even though I've had most of them. So, you know, you do your job.

L.G.: Tell me, how long have you been here now?
 
S.M.: Eighteen months.
 
L.G.: And you've got some arrangement where you don't pay straight rent, you give a percentage of your gross to your landlord?
 
S.M.: I did my part, I hope they're doing their part. We don't know yet.
 
L.G.: Le Cirque was not in business for 11 months. That's a long time. Were you worried they'd forget about you?
 
S.M.: No, and I'm ready to move again. If I find something that brings me the people, and the people come to me, I'm ready to move again.
 
L.G.: What's the secret? I mean, you've been in the restaurant business-which is in itself a tough and brutal business, where you see restaurants open and close all the time-almost uninterrupted since 1974.

S.M.: When I had the first Le Cirque, which had 100 seats, I started the idea that you don't mind to be squeezed if good people are sitting next to you.

L.G.: So what's more important in terms of sort of creating a customer base? Is it the fact that you have Frank Sinatra and Sophia Loren and Henry Kissinger, or is it the food? Which is it?
 
S.M.: The food. It goes together. You cannot try to do anything if you don't feel that you have good food. Food can be a very different indication of what food is all about. To me it determines. If it's a cassoulet or an Italian dish, the sausage and beef, I go downtown. If you tell me that, with all due respect, it's nouvelle cuisine, I don't go. Now, you eat better in New York.... The big thing is, you need a place to go to eat. For many years, it's been changing, but always there's fine restaurants. One comes up, and another one went down. Everything has been done, going back many years ago...
 
L.G.: So what restaurants do you check out? You've been to Nobu obviously. Downtown or 57th Street?
 
S.M.: I like 57th Street. Nobu is a very intelligent way to do a restaurant. First of all it is the direction of what people want in food today. You don't go to Nobu to have an appetizer, a soup, and a main course. You go to Nobu to have a tasting. And everything tastes the same, no matter where. You have one sweet, and then sour, and it's very attractive.... I'm a friend of [Robert] De Niro [part-owner of Nobu].
 
L.G.: Do you know [Nobu executive] Drew Nieporent?
 
S.M.: Yeah. I am a friend of De Niro. Drew is not a friend of De Niro. I am a friend of Drew too. Very good friend...I also go to some Italian restaurants I know. San Pietro, because I know the owner.  I go to Shun Lee Palace East and always order the same thing—the Peking duck. I don't go to any place regularly. When I truly want to eat I call my wife and say, "Can I come home?"

L.G.: Have you been to the Waverly Inn?
 
S.M.: I like it. It's very difficult to get a reservation. You have to call Vanity Fair. Graydon Carter—I remember him when he was editor of Spy. I was there as a guest of Michael Douglas.
 
L.G.: Did you like it?

S.M.: It could be simpler and better.

L.G.: Did you try the truffled macaroni and cheese?
 
S.M.: I tried the chicken pie.
 
L.G.: How was that?
 
S.M.: A bit too dry, but anyway—

L.G.: You are not very generous with your praise of competitors, are you?
 
S.M.: No, I like simple food.
 
L.G.: Just like they say there are only three plots in literature, there's only so many enduring dishes and restaurants. I'm just going to ask you a question that's really impertinent: How much cash does a place like this have to throw off?

S.M.: Now, we break even, which is a miracle in places like this.
 
L.G.: Yeah, but what kind of volume, just in terms of dollars?
 
S.M.: I don't care about my money. Maybe I shouldn't say that. We are doing well. We are doing a million dollars a month.

 
L.G.: A million dollars a month, here at this place?
 
S.M.: Just at the beginning. This was the biggest mistake of my life, and we're going to be successful.
 
L.G.: Why do you say it was the biggest mistake of your life?
 
S.M.: Too much money.

L.G.: You've invested money, obviously, in the design.

S.M.: My money. My money.
 
L.G.: How much have you put in? Millions of dollars?
 
S.M.: Close to $10 million. This cost more than the last one. This cost double. But it was the money that I have to give back [as a loan]. But it's my sons' problem eventually.... You want to do a tasting menu?
 
L.G.: You're the boss.... Can I ask you, you are someone known for catering to the rich and powerful and famous. How important is that?
 
S.M.: Let me tell you, my mentality is that I was born on a farm...
 
L.G.: Yes, what I am asking is, to have a hot restaurant, to get people in the door, how important is having a clientele like that?
 
S.M.: Very important. It makes you feel good. I wouldn't have been in this restaurant or in this business any longer if it was not for the people.... You know when I opened in New York it was very elegant. Because it is casual and elegant and is more beautiful just to have a tie, yes?
 
L.G.: I'm glad I put on a tie. I heard that you're a stickler on that.
 
S.M.: No, I want to do the casual, I want to do the bar, I want to do the fun. And then I also want to respect some of the people. You don't come in like you want to show your power. I say, "Please, okay, we bring you to the table, but do me a favor." When we have a couple that is attractive and well dressed, then we send them a drink.

L.G.: It's good for business? 
 
S.M.: Yeah, but also especially women appreciate that. Men are not very intelligent. In Las Vegas, people get dressed up, and they say, "Go to Le Cirque, you get a glass of champagne."
 
L.G.: Let me ask you, the kind of people you had at the start of Le Cirque-Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon, Nancy Reagan—these people are now very, very old, or dead. Nancy is in her '80s, Henry Kissinger is in his '80s—
 
S.M.: Nice man. But she is very nice.... I was very close with the Kennedy family.
 
L.G.: So how do you attract a new crowd? 
 
S.M.: The young people, they all come. Like Cuomo, they come here. We have a younger crowd now than 34 years ago when we opened.
 
L.G.: Are you depending on your sons?
 
S.M.: I'm depending on my sons and depending on people coming. You know some of the very rich young persons today, they don't even have a jacket. My son says, "Daddy, as rich as they are, they don't even have a jacket."
 
L.G.: We seem to be heading into a recession. Wall Street is not doing well today. How is the restaurant business affected?
 
S.M.: My philosophy—and I hope it's going to work again—is that it's not the first time that a New York has a crisis. I hope you remember 1971. For us, for some types of restaurants, it was the best, because people now they don't go on vacation, they want to go out instead. They want to show people that they are here. And so they go out more when everything goes awry than go on vacation. When something goes wrong, everybody is there. The good or bad they want to be part of it and that helps us, I hope. Because up to now, we have been doing very well.

L.G.: How much of your business would you say is New Yorkers and regulars versus tourists?
 
S.M.: The New Yorkers come here two, three times a week, and 25 percent is tourists.... Tomorrow I'm going on vacation. I'm going to the Dominican Republic, where I'm opening a place over there just for fun.
 
L.G.: You'll have a restaurant in the Dominican Republic? And you have one in Mexico City, and one or two in Las Vegas?
 
S.M.: Two in Las Vegas, but it's going to be three in the end because we are in a new project. My son Mario is there. And Mauro is in Circo [Osterio de Circo, which opened on West 55th Street in 1996], and Marco is here. I figure they're doing something. I say that I don't want to know. One of us is always here.

L.G.: Are you involved in everything day to day, or do you let these guys run it?
 
S.M.: They should be ashamed of themselves. I'm here 6 or 7 days a week.... I hate to work.
 
L.G.: You hate to work?
 
S.M.: Yes. And especially in this business. That is why I am good, I believe. Because I prepare myself. It's like going to a fight, a difficult fight. People think they are paying me a compliment when they say, "You are born for this business." No, I was not born for this business. I was born for many different things.... But I have to say that to me what the New Yorkers consider the most difficult people, for me they have been the nicest people. I can call now Donald Trump and ask him a favor, and it will take him two minutes and he will call me back.

L.G.: There was talk that you might relocate in one of the Trump hotels. You didn't. Why not?
 
S.M.: Because, you see, there is a union. I protect my employees. I don't need a gangster from the outside to come in and tell me how I run the restaurant.
 
L.G.: How do you get away with that in New York?
 
S.M.: The hotels are union. Most of the restaurants are not union. That's because the union is very bad. At Circo we don't have a union. But Circo is happy. The people don't like to pay $100 a month to the union for nothing. Believe me, we know that if somebody gets sick here, I take him to my doctor, at 78 East 70th Street. If they are with the union they have to take a train and go to Brooklyn and they don't even know if they can come back.... You can unionize a restaurant in a hotel because the hotel doesn't want a strike. But here, they cannot come in.
 
L.G.: What portion of your fixed cost is employees—waitstaff and busboys, etcetera?

S.M.: Thirty-five percent. It's payroll 35 percent. Food and wine 30 to 35 percent. Overhead 35 percent.
 
L.G.: What kind of profit margin?
 
S.M.: New York is the lowest profit margin in the world. Always. From  8 percent to a maximum of 10 percent. Very dangerous.
 
L.G.: You are only making, at most, 10 percent here?
 
S.M.: Now I don't make anything.
 
L.G.: But in the best of all possible worlds, if you are making a $100,000 profit a month then you are doing okay.
 
S.M.: We hope that we would be able to do a little bit more than that.
 
L.G.: Okay, fine, but why are you in this business and not in a more profitable business with higher margins?
 
S.M.: First of all, no bank will give you 10 percent for your money. And, for example, we don't make money here, but they pay us for our name in Las Vegas, in Mexico City. Same in the Dominican Republic. It's more of a franchise.... Then we are in the process of opening one in London. That is an ego trip. That's also very expensive to do things there, and they are very difficult people. If you go to London, you have to go with the idea to be among the best.
 
L.G.: So how do you make sure that it is up to your standards?
 
S.M.: We have to find the right people. In Vegas, one of my sons lives there, Mario. And he is also working for MGM and has a very good salary. And Mauro is running Circo. It may be one of the most successful restaurants in New York, because it's strictly New York. And so each one of us has a salary.
 
L.G.: You and your sons have an equal share in this?
 
S.M.: We do that, and my wife [Egidiana Maccioni]. She is a pain in the neck but she is my wife. My wife is there at Circo. She's there now. My wife was one of the most famous singers in Italy. Actually she's the one who introduced Julio Iglesias to the Italian public in 1961, and she toured in New York and Canada. She had a one-woman show in Carnegie Hall.

L.G.: When did you get married?
 
S.M.: We got married in 1964.
 
L.G.: What took you so long? You started dating in 1957, didn't you?
 
S.M.: It was the best thing I did in my life and I was very lucky. Because if you're lucky, you're really lucky. But to me, at nights sometimes I could wake up and get scared.
 
L.G.: So the restaurants that you own are just here in New York?
 
S.M.: Yes, this we own.
 
L.G.: If you're an experienced waiter, how much can you make here?
 
S.M.: From a minimum of $2,000 over five days, eight hours a day. I am the only one that does 16 hours.
 
L.G.: And they all get benefits?
 
S.M.: Yes, they do okay.
 
L.G.: How are the corporate taxes here in New York?
 
S.M.: Very expensive. Double, double, double.
 
L.G.: Does Mike Bloomberg come in?
 
S.M.: Yes. I asked if he's running for president. He told me two days ago, no.
 
L.G.: Are you against the smoking ban?
 
S.M.: I don't smoke, and if you provide a room with enough ventilation I think it is nonsense. The second you go out in the street, you have that problem. Anyplace you go. That is an ego political trick. I am sorry. You can do something much better than that. They can do better health care for the people. Better hospitals.

L.G.: So this is something you have to live with.
 
S.M.: Yes. For example, it is because of this that some good people for New York come here less than before the smoking ban. Rich Mexicans, they don't come on vacation to New York anymore. Don't tell a Mexican that he cannot smoke and have a cognac. You ask a Mexican, "Why are you eating?" He says, "I'm eating so I can have a great cigar and the cognac."

 
L.G.: Let me ask you about a sore subject. Let's get it out of the way quick. New York Times restaurant critic Frank Bruni—
 
S.M.: Who's he? I don't know him.
 
L.G.: [Laughs] Frank Bruni came here back in July 2006, and in the movie, you're shown reacting to his review in the New York Times.

 
S.M.: That was a big mistake. I should not have ever reacted. Now, you know, you learn you don't react.... The press has been more than fair with me. We had people from important magazines, Town and Country, Vanity Fair, not easy people, doing something very important, even the gossip columns. They're with us, they show me eating a hamburger up in the mountains, which was funny. But Frank Bruni, if that's his name, still doesn't—

L.G.: So if I keep saying Frank Bruni to you, you're going to have to just get up and leave?
 
S.M.: The Times has been back. They sent a photographer.
 
L.G.: So you're waiting for the review.
 
S.M.: I will not make the same mistake I did with the movie. I will treat them completely with indifference, regardless of what they say.... Still, a good review from the New York Times makes you feel good. Not only me but the people that work in the kitchen. Can you imagine how you feel uncomfortable being here and working [after a bad review]? Especially the young people. When a bad review comes, sometimes they look at me and  say "Why?" You have to try to explain and just try not to think about it.

[Bruni's more positive reassessment of Le Cirque, headlined "In Defense of Decadence" and restoring a star for a total of three for "excellent," appeared on February 6.]

L.G.: Let me ask you, other than your bruised vanity, did the 2006 review have any impact on your business? And did you change things as a result of the reviews?
 
S.M.: Oh yes, oh yes. No, we tried to change. I had to change the general manager, the No. 1 chef, the pastry chef, and the officer manager. It's like changing your driver when your car is going at 150-miles-an-hour speed. It was very traumatic, but I had to do it.

L.G.: So you got rid of your chef, Pierre Schaedelin?
 
S.M.: Pierre left because he went back to Martha Stewart.
 
L.G.: Because it wasn't working out here for him.
 
S.M.: No, Pierre could have stayed. Pierre said, "We had to try." It was my fault. I think it was a misinterpretation. You know, you are what you are. When you're in the city, you have to remain in the city. And between my sons and him, they wanted to change, and you know, you cannot keep fighting with them.

L.G.: Now your executive chef is Christophe Bellanca.
 
S.M.: His father is Sicilian. I said, "My friend, the only reason I hired you is because your name is Italian. Otherwise you would never have been here."

L.G.: But it's still kind of an Italian-French cuisine?
 
S.M.: It's a mixture. It's New York restaurant. This restaurant would not exist in any other part of the world.
 
L.G.: Why is that?
 
S.M.: Here you need to do a minimum of $12 million a year. Otherwise we are broke. And there is no restaurant in Europe like that.... Yesterday we had a little Italian-style bolito. The bolito is what the farmers used to do. You have the sausage. You sauté. You have a little bit of oil, garlic, and tomato. And it was a thing that my grandmother used to do.
 
L.G.: So you're always happy to be introducing new dishes.
 
S.M.: The right dish. This bolito, it's very different the texture, and I hear two or three persons say, "This is good." Eventually, when I'm ready, I'll put it on the menu. But how can you do that with somebody by the name of whatever you said his name is [Frank Bruni]? They have a complex of inferiority! Because they're afraid that you want to buy them! I still work six, seven days a week, 14-hour days. I don't want to buy anybody!
 
L.G.: Now on the very day that Frank Bruni's review appeared, [New York Times Company chairman] Arthur Sulzberger Jr. came here for dinner. And you hate that guy, don't you?
 
S.M.: No.
 
L.G.: That's what the filmmaker said.
 
S.M.: There's not going to be filmmakers anymore in here. No, I spoke with Sulzberger. He came to say good night to me when he left.

L.G.: So he's still welcome here.
 
S.M.: You cannot choose who's going to come.
 
L.G.: How important is the press in the restaurant business?
 
S.M.: In the beginning, it can be very important. Let me tell you, in 1975, I was away, and then I come back at the airport and find my wife, and I say, "Why did you come? Something happen? Is one of the children is sick?" She said no. In those days, the New York Times was reviewing the restaurants on Fridays, now they do on Wednesdays. She said, "No, we have a bad review from the New York Times." It was very bad, it was bad to the point of personal, and so it was a disaster. And Saturday for lunch was already kind of quiet, we had 60 people. John Canaday said we had two stars with the potential of four, and Mimi Sheraton comes in and she took everything away...but then 150 came in for lunch. We still had lots of pieces of paper with the dedication, "Tell her that we are your stars."